Moody 31 MkII Keel bolts on a Moody 31 mkII

C

Catherine Davis

Registered Guest
Hello to everyone here. I just signed up for a guest membership because I'm looking at 2 Moody 31 boats, hoping to buy something soon.
I'm quite far away from these 2 boats, so I'm relying on photos before booking by trip to see them in person.
I was wondering if someone here would be kind enough to look at a photo of one of the boat's keel bolts and tell me what they think.
Many thanks in advance,
Catherine

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Catherine, given the age of our yachts, they don't look too bad and certainly wouldn't put me off travelling to to view. Be aware that rust normally looks far worse than it actually is, indeed the rust can be 10 times the thickness of the original steel.

We have a bilge keeled M31, so slightly different arrangement and twice the number of bolts. These are what ours looked like until I tackled them a couple of years ago. The rust was cleaned off using a wire brush attachment in a electric drill. Next a coat of rust killer from Halfords which converts the surface to a hard black finish. Finally a coat of special metal primer and two coats of grey bilge paint from the chandlers.

Cracking yachts, we have had ours for 16 years and have no plans to change, it really suits our needs.

Pete
 

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Pete, thanks for your reply. Those photos are certainly informative! Your bolts look so good now.
The boat that I'm looking at seems to be extremely clean for it's age, so someone must have been taking good care of it, but I have no experience with rusty keel bolts so it's good to see that yours were still OK under the rust layer.
 
Pete Rowland said:
Catherine, given the age of our yachts, they don't look too bad and certainly wouldn't put me off travelling to to view. Be aware that rust normally looks far worse than it actually is, indeed the rust can be 10 times the thickness of the original steel.

We have a bilge keeled M31, so slightly different arrangement and twice the number of bolts. These are what ours looked like until I tackled them a couple of years ago. The rust was cleaned off using a wire brush attachment in a electric drill. Next a coat of rust killer from Halfords which converts the surface to a hard black finish. Finally a coat of special metal primer and two coats of grey bilge paint from the chandlers.

Cracking yachts, we have had ours for 16 years and have no plans to change, it really suits our needs.

Pete
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Sorry, didn't tag you in my reply below.
 
Yes agree with all of that. After rust converter treatment, hammerite paint is a very good and easy to apply protection. And sort out why water getting in bilge in first place. I also have bilge keels so less an issue but still a dry bilge much the better in my humble opinion.
 
Keith Mann said:
Yes agree with all of that. After rust converter treatment, hammerite paint is a very good and easy to apply protection. And sort out why water getting in bilge in first place. I also have bilge keels so less an issue but still a dry bilge much the better in my humble opinion.
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So is it the case that when one sees rust like this, there will have been standing water in the bilge for quite a period of time? It's bone dry right now, so the seller might have just cleaned up really well.
 
I would say so, however it could have arisen from something, many things, that has been fixed, maybe some time ago. Biggest concern would be that keel to hull join has failed, in which case expensive repair needed, but unlikely. I would talk to the seller about it and see what they know. Amount of rust, which I would say is not an issue but needs sorting, looks an easy fix, must have come from more than atmospheric damp in my view. If the boat is in the water and bilge is dry now then be good to know the story, if they know.
If you are serious about buying this one, do get a survey done. M31s are really nice boats, Mine is a MK1, would have preferred a Mk2 but only as it has a forward facing chart table. Mk 2 has a sugar scoop transom which the Mk1 does not but no big deal to me. Otherwise they are both the same I believe. Does it have original Volvo 2003??? or has it been upgraded?? I still have the old 2003 which runs and starts very well and its 40 yrs old. If its been well cared for people say they go for ever, nice low tech lump. Others just rip them out and put Beta engines in. One day I suppose. 28Hp on a 31 ft boat is a lot of power. Not let me down yet, touch wood. But I would get a diesel engineer to have a look over as surveyor probably wont run it. I had a M28 before, which I sold for various reasons. Basically the same boat but a bit smaller. Attracted to both as they just dont look their age, especially if you redo the decals and lines on the hull. You wont win many races but as a cruiser the 31 provides a lot of space and comfort. And build quality is really good, much stronger than new boats but its heavier for it. Fine with me. Great boats, sail well, safe and strong.
 
Keith Mann said:
I would say so, however it could have arisen from something, many things, that has been fixed, maybe some time ago. Biggest concern would be that keel to hull join has failed, in which case expensive repair needed, but unlikely. I would talk to the seller about it and see what they know. Amount of rust, which I would say is not an issue but needs sorting, looks an easy fix, must have come from more than atmospheric damp in my view. If the boat is in the water and bilge is dry now then be good to know the story, if they know.
If you are serious about buying this one, do get a survey done. M31s are really nice boats, Mine is a MK1, would have preferred a Mk2 but only as it has a forward facing chart table. Mk 2 has a sugar scoop transom which the Mk1 does not but no big deal to me. Otherwise they are both the same I believe. Does it have original Volvo 2003??? or has it been upgraded?? I still have the old 2003 which runs and starts very well and its 40 yrs old. If its been well cared for people say they go for ever, nice low tech lump. Others just rip them out and put Beta engines in. One day I suppose. 28Hp on a 31 ft boat is a lot of power. Not let me down yet, touch wood. But I would get a diesel engineer to have a look over as surveyor probably wont run it. I had a M28 before, which I sold for various reasons. Basically the same boat but a bit smaller. Attracted to both as they just dont look their age, especially if you redo the decals and lines on the hull. You wont win many races but as a cruiser the 31 provides a lot of space and comfort. And build quality is really good, much stronger than new boats but its heavier for it. Fine with me. Great boats, sail well, safe and strong.
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Thanks Keith. That's all great info. The boat has been repowered with a 2001 Yanmar 3GM30. Apart from that there seem to have been very few upgrades, but she's very clean. We would definitely need new rigging, and sails eventually, in addition to batteries, nav equipment etc. Oh, and also a water heater! Do you happen to know where to put one of these in this model?
 
I replaced water heater with a new 30L one and put it parallel to the fuel tank in cockpit locker. On here there is a thread about putting in port locker under sofa in main cabin, but I think smaller capacity and on mine there are seacocks so be more work. I dont find reduced space in cockpit locker a problem, others disagree. I bought my M31 about 3 yrs ago very cheap on basis she was sound but neglected and needed upgrading, new electrics etc, etc. I am not an engineer or anything but restoring her has been most enjoyable. So I now have a solid boat with new systems. Boat yard did some of the jobs and me the rest. No idea how you hook up hot water tank to a Yanmar but expect its a known thing.
Yanmar replacement sounds good point. M31s seem to come up quite a lot and good ones go for £30K ish. I think it was a popular boat and they built several hundred. Bargain in my view. But survey as these are oldish so anything could be an expensive issue. I am on old sails too, probably change after next season if I can find the cash. but recent outings I thought they were OK, but what do I know. Really just getting to use her but she has become part of the household really. Nice boat and draws compliments even after 40yrs.
Keith
 
Keith Mann said:
I replaced water heater with a new 30L one and put it parallel to the fuel tank in cockpit locker. On here there is a thread about putting in port locker under sofa in main cabin, but I think smaller capacity and on mine there are seacocks so be more work. I dont find reduced space in cockpit locker a problem, others disagree. I bought my M31 about 3 yrs ago very cheap on basis she was sound but neglected and needed upgrading, new electrics etc, etc. I am not an engineer or anything but restoring her has been most enjoyable. So I now have a solid boat with new systems. Boat yard did some of the jobs and me the rest. No idea how you hook up hot water tank to a Yanmar but expect its a known thing.
Yanmar replacement sounds good point. M31s seem to come up quite a lot and good ones go for £30K ish. I think it was a popular boat and they built several hundred. Bargain in my view. But survey as these are oldish so anything could be an expensive issue. I am on old sails too, probably change after next season if I can find the cash. but recent outings I thought they were OK, but what do I know. Really just getting to use her but she has become part of the household really. Nice boat and draws compliments even after 40yrs.
Keith
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Sounds like I should just pay for the fuller membership here, once we closer to moving forward. Then I'll look up that water heater installation thread. Hot water will be a must for us because we plan on spending a couple of months aboard next summer. This boat feels like a nice compromise as I can't find many at this length with as much storage for 2 people's stuff but also not too heavy to actually have fun sailing, which is the point after all. Again, thanks for your input. It's really helpful. I hope you get to find a great bargain on some sails soon!
 
Full membership will be the greatest bargain you will ever get. MOA has been invaluable during Estrela refurb. Good luck, hope it all goes smoothly.
Keith
 
Catherine Davis said:
Hello to everyone here. I just signed up for a guest membership because I'm looking at 2 Moody 31 boats, hoping to buy something soon.
I'm quite far away from these 2 boats, so I'm relying on photos before booking by trip to see them in person.
I was wondering if someone here would be kind enough to look at a photo of one of the boat's keel bolts and tell me what they think.
Many thanks in advance,
Catherine

View attachment 33306
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Dear Catherine,
ist looks like I will have next week the opportunity to view the same boot, so it is still not sold (Wedel/Hamburg). In the case you have already viewed the boat, what was your imperssion, any negative points prevents you to buy? Andreas
 
Hi Catherine,

From what hour photo shows, there's not a lot wrong with those keel bolts (actually stds and nuts) that you won't fix with the help of a wire brush on a drill and soe paint. Marine Projects, who built most Moodys, were one of the last builders to move away from carbon steel to stainless steel for keel fastenings, I understand because of concerns about crevice corrosion in stainless steel. A consequence of this is the rusting you observe in a boat where the bilge has not been kept scrupulously dry. However the rust always looks worse than it is because the volume of rust is at least 8 times greater than the volume of steel lost in the rusting process. Once the tops of the studs, the nuts and the backing plates are cleaned up, you will be in a better position to judge the condition of the fasteners. Invariably members who have dawn keel studs for inspection report that the condition of the studs below the nuts is as new completely uncorroded.

You can read more about these keel fastenings here:


and find many other discussions on Moody keel bolts / keel fastenings by using the search facility on this site.

Good luck with your search.

Peter.
 
Peter Wright said:
Hi Catherine,

From what hour photo shows, there's not a lot wrong with those keel bolts (actually stds and nuts) that you won't fix with the help of a wire brush on a drill and soe paint. Marine Projects, who built most Moodys, were one of the last builders to move away from carbon steel to stainless steel for keel fastenings, I understand because of concerns about crevice corrosion in stainless steel. A consequence of this is the rusting you observe in a boat where the bilge has not been kept scrupulously dry. However the rust always looks worse than it is because the volume of rust is at least 8 times greater than the volume of steel lost in the rusting process. Once the tops of the studs, the nuts and the backing plates are cleaned up, you will be in a better position to judge the condition of the fasteners. Invariably members who have dawn keel studs for inspection report that the condition of the studs below the nuts is as new completely uncorroded.

You can read more about these keel fastenings here:


and find many other discussions on Moody keel bolts / keel fastenings by using the search facility on this site.

Good luck with your search.

Peter.
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Thanks Peter. That's very helpful. I'm really trying to avoid a massive repair project with out next boat.
 
Andreas Berghaeuser said:
Dear Catherine,
ist looks like I will have next week the opportunity to view the same boot, so it is still not sold (Wedel/Hamburg). In the case you have already viewed the boat, what was your imperssion, any negative points prevents you to buy? Andreas
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Hi Andreas. I haven't been to see this boat yet. It's a long way from where I live and I'm waiting until the new year to actually make any offers. My impression from the description and from emailing with the broker is that the boat looks really clean, but it needs a lot of updating which won't be cheap. I'm thinking at least new rigging, some electrical work, all navigational equipment, hot water heater, and who knows how old the sails are. And that's before any specific issues one might find in person. So for me, this makes the price too high next to some other boats I'm looking at. I'd be super interested to find out what your impression is when you visit though! If you have the time, could you give me an update?
 
Catherine Davis said:
Hi Andreas. I haven't been to see this boat yet. It's a long way from where I live and I'm waiting until the new year to actually make any offers. My impression from the description and from emailing with the broker is that the boat looks really clean, but it needs a lot of updating which won't be cheap. I'm thinking at least new rigging, some electrical work, all navigational equipment, hot water heater, and who knows how old the sails are. And that's before any specific issues one might find in person. So for me, this makes the price too high next to some other boats I'm looking at. I'd be super interested to find out what your impression is when you visit though! If you have the time, could you give me an update?
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Hi Catherine,
Thanks for your reply. I hope to get a closer look at this Moody, actually response time of the broker is not easy.... From the pictures I was not happy about the rust in the bilge, also there are strange water stains at the front skylight. I will give a feedback to you....
 
Andreas Berghaeuser said:
Hi Catherine,
Thanks for your reply. I hope to get a closer look at this Moody, actually response time of the broker is not easy.... From the pictures I was not happy about the rust in the bilge, also there are strange water stains at the front skylight. I will give a feedback to you....
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Yes, the broker situation with this boat is weird. I had to repeatedly email the Italian broker for them to finally put me in touch with a local person who was a bit more helpful. Let me know if I can help in any way.
 
Catherine Davis said:
Thanks Peter. That's very helpful. I'm really trying to avoid a massive repair project with out next boat.
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Hi Catherine,

The big job which may come out of the keel fastening is a need to drop the keel and remake the keel to hull joint, in which case it's worth replacing all the studs, nuts and backing plates. This is unlikely to be required because of rusting of the carbon steel parts, but would be needed if the hull/ keel joint had failed. The article I linked to in my previous post explains how to diagnose such a failure.

Peter.
 
Peter Wright said:
Hi Catherine,

The big job which may come out of the keel fastening is a need to drop the keel and remake the keel to hull joint, in which case it's worth replacing all the studs, nuts and backing plates. This is unlikely to be required because of rusting of the carbon steel parts, but would be needed if the hull/ keel joint had failed. The article I linked to in my previous post explains how to diagnose such a failure.

Peter.
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Yes, exactly. Sadly, I can't access the link that you posted because I think I have the wrong forum membership. I should just pay to upgrade. The next boat will very possibly be a Moody, and either way this forum is full of good info and nice people.
 
Hi Catherine,

It's not expensive to join as a Temporary Member which converts to Full Membership free of charge when you buy a Moody.

Peter.
 
Hi Catherine and additional members,
Today I had the opportunity to have a look at the boat. The bolts and washers inside are rusty, but I think not so much that they have to be replaced. My only doubt is about the outside connection of the keel. I attached two photos. In the front and back of the keel you can see rust, the middle part is ok. As a question to the specalists: Is this normal, or could there be a problem with infiltration of water inside the bolts?

regards
Andreas
 

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Hi Andreas,

For aboat over 30 years old the hull / keel joint is looking remarkably good. The usual way to detect incipient failure of that joint is to observe the boat when her weight is first put down on her keel following lift out If water starts oozing out of the joint it's at least starting to fail. From what I can see in your photo, this boat does not have any major problem with the joint. you can clean off the slight rusting with a rotary wire brush, treat any remaining rust with rust converter, then prime with three coats of Primocon before antifouling.

If the slight rusting is left untreated, it will propagate across the top surface of the keel, eventually reaching the keel studs, breaking the adhesive bond of the keel to the joint. If that is allowed to happen, the only cure is to drop the keel and remake the joint, so preventive action now will save a lot of work.

Peter.
 
Hi again,
may I ask something about the price level for Moody 31 Mk2...
There are fin keel and bilge keel versions on the market. Also wheel and tiller Models. Does both have any influence to the reselling price?
There is a great spreading in the price level, starting under 30.000€ until 40.000€, what would be an adequate price for a 1991 in good condition?
regards
Andreas
 
Hi Andreas,

I cannot help you with the absolute price of the boat, but I will say that wheel or tiller steering, in the UK at least, has little influence as some buyers are ardent tiller supporters and others will only buy one with a wheel. I think the fin / bilge also has a small effect on the price as hose in areas with a lot of shallow water ports will want a bilge keel version and those with deeper water all around will go for a fin keel in the hope f getting marginally better windward performance. However, in boats this age there are other factors affecting relative prices:
  • Is the engine still the 30 odd year old original or is it a fairly new installation?
  • Same question for the sails
  • when was the standing rigging last replaced?
  • How old are the electronics?
A boat that requires attention to all 4 of these issues can easily cost a further 10,000 Euros (or more) to bring to the same condition as a well cared for boat which has a fairly new engine, new sails and standing rigging and up to date electronics, so accounting for differences in price. Add to that the fact that some sellers have a very inflated idea of the value of their beloved boat and 10,000 Euros variance in price is surprisingly small.

Of course, the last issue is what you mean by "in good condition". If that means gleaming with a new engine, new sails, new standing rigging, full electronic refit just completed, new cooker, new sole boards, new windows, new hatches, new head linings and new cooker, 40, 000 Euros is probably a good buy.

Peter
 
Hi Peter,
thanks for your fast reply. Yes I aggree your arguments, although there are a lot of pricing differences without obvious differences in the refit status.
The recent moody has a Yanamar 3GM30F (1000h), it is not not really clear when this motor was built in. The issue of the keel bolts we already disussed.... (this is still something I am worry about....)
Sails I have still to check, rigging was replaced in past. New fridge and kitchen components were installed.
Are there any other week points I have to check: puttings Leakage ?, fresh water tank: as I understood the tank ist integrated as a topcoat tank ?
any problems with the sandwich deck? Rudder bearings, rudder/Skeg construktion? Any osmose issues known?

regards
Andreas
 
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